Uzanto-Diskuto:88.149.117.47

88.149.117.47 (disk • kontr • forigitaj kontribuoj • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • forbaru • forbarlibro • Guglo • angla)

Ne vandalumu Vikipedion.

You said:

"I suggest this Wikipedia be closed simply cause Esperanto is not a language. Why don't you people put your time to someting more useful and learn a REAL Language and help out thesee other wikipedias that REAL PEOPLE SPEAK and USE. I will vote to close this wikipedia, cause this is stupid."

Since this is the second time you've posted

What you should probably know is, Esperanto is a real language. In fact, some of the people that work here are native Esperantists. Esperanto is their native language (along with the language of their home country.) It is estimated that about 1 million people use the language. Check out this article about us in the English Wikipedia, which talks about some of our good works (Wikipedia handbook in Esperanto, and our introducing people to Wikipedia at Esperanto conventions.)

If you wish to have a discussion about Esperanto, the discussion page of the Main Page is not an appropriate place to have it. (If you continue to do that, I will ban your IP address.) If you wish to discuss this, please use my talk page, or the "Diskutejo". Some of the people on there (like me) speak English, and someone may translate any rational arguments you might make.

If you feel very strongly about closing the Esperanto Wikipedia (in spite of much activity and surprisingly good articles) maybe you can make a proposal at meta:Proposals for closing projects. However, you might also want to compare the quality of the Esperanto wikipedia with that of the Volapuk (another constructed language), which has more articles, but they are 97% bot-generated. Despite that, they survived two attempts to close that wiki. Also, Brion Vibber, a chief developer of Wikimedia, (see en:Wikipedia:Brion Vibber Day) is one of our community and an admin here.

Best wishes, -- Yekrats 15:57, 3. Maj 2008 (UTC)

Esperanto Debate

So I am not an unsigned user, my name is Jóhann and I am very familiar with Wikipedia. (Just felt like a small "vandal" on this virtual wikipedia would be fun for a change and take a break from a very serious sysop). I am also a huge language nerd and linguist. So just wanted to introduce myself before you think I am just some immature idiot with no argumental value.

Closing the Wikipedia is a big thing, people spend much time. I spent countless hours alone working on Chechen wikipedia. But I have no concern of that being closed since Chechen is a real language. To me, Esperanto is not a real language, like Volapük (I will attack them next).

A better move I feel is to move it to Wikia, like the Klingon Wikipedia, since they are both artificiall language. (Yes I just compared it to Klingon).

The people whom have it as a native language are probably ashamed of it, as my generation is so eager to use English, at least here in Iceland, or maybe at least here in Reykjavik. The idea of an international language with Eserpanto is foolish, to me, someone who knows not even one word of Esperanto (except for Diskuto) it looks like Spanish. That it, looks like Spanish with a bunch of OJ's everywhere. I find this foolish. Our international languages are English, Arabic, French, Spanish, Chinese, and Russian. When we travel, we tend to find a common langauge ground with this. It is very rare a normal foreigner speaks Esperanto in a foreign country. All the foreigners I meet that do not speak English or Icelandic, we find a common language. Even the Polish here, I wind up speaking Russian with a kick of Ukrainian.

Because out of the respect of fellow Wikipedians, I feel closing it would be a drastic measure, but I also beleive people shouldn't spend so much time on such a useless Wikipedia.

Personally too, that was kind of aggressive and irrelevent stating that a Metawiki member is also an administrator here. But that is regardless from this debate. Awaiting your reply. :) --88.149.117.47 01:12, 4. Maj 2008 (UTC)

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When you say Esperanto is not a real language, you are patently wrong. Maybe you are biased against languages that have been invented. Then you probably share these same biases against Modern Hebrew, right? Or do you consider it a real language? Did you know that Modern Hebrew was invented, based on ancient Hebrew and other area languages, as a way to unite the Jews in the early 20th Century. Maybe you are only biased against certain invented languages and not others, eh?

Since you seem to have a complaint about the -OJ, here's a little Esperanto lesson. Nouns end in -O, and plural nouns are -OJ. The J sounds like the English Y. Hundo = dog. Hundoj = dogs.

Esperanto has native speakers and its own culture. We have our own original literature, plays, and rock music. I spend my hard-earned money on that stuff. The native Esperantists that I know are not ashamed of it, and several actively work here.

We will not move our fine encyclopedia to Wikia. We like spending time here. We're kinda serious about it, I guess. ;-) We have a dedicated following and a history of being good Wikicitizens. We've got over 40 users that are considered "very active" by the statistics, and I'm one of them. You might also want to acknowledge our featured articles. Clearly, it's useful to us. Furthermore, I like Esperanto, because it gives me a chance to break out of my little prison of English, and see the world from a more international perspective. I think it's a beautiful, elegant, living and constantly evolving language!

Your suggestion for us to pack up our bags and move to Wikia is frankly rather insulting, as was the manner that you went about it. When you post things like "Close this Wikipedia. It's not a real language." that is considered trollish behavior. Surely you know that. You have yet to say what we're doing wrong other than you don't like Esperanto.

If you don't like Esperanto, you don't have to come here, you know. I don't know why it bothers you that we actively work in Wikipedia, doing something that we enjoy. -- Yekrats 03:54, 4. Maj 2008 (UTC)

Mi gratulas Scott-on ke li firme argumentis kaj mi aldonas kelkajn komentojn (Esperantlingve ĉar mi ne tiom bone regas la anglan ke mi povus libere esprimiĝi en la angla)

I add some comments in Esperanto because my English ability is not so good that I could express myself clearly in English. Please translate my post who can and would like; AL ✉^@₪

Via aserto ke Esperanto ne estas reala lingvo estas absurdaĵo. Esperanto estas lingvo kaj ĝi estas reala. Eĉ se inter esperantoparolantoj troviĝus neniu denaskulo (kiel estis en la unuaj jardekoj de la lingvo) ĝi tamen nediskuteble respondas al difino de reala lingvo.

Scott mencias la hebrean, mi aldonus la indonezian kiu ankaŭ estas planita lingvo (planlingvo el la malaja) kiu fariĝis oficiala lingvo de granda lando. Oni eĉ povus diri pri ĉiuj gravaj ŝtat- kaj kultur-lingvoj ke ili iam estis normigitaj el "realaj" disaj dialektoj parolataj en la lando (tiel estas pri la franca, la itala, la germana, la hispana), ke iasence ili ĉiuj estas planlingvoj.

Esperanto eĉ havas pli da parolantoj kaj da kulturaj produktoj (libroj, gazetoj, sondokumentoj, retpaĝoj, ktp) ol multaj el la ĉ 6700 lingvoj parolataj en la mondo. Precipe ene de la multlingva Vikipedio, Esperanto staras en bona pozicio : la Esperanta Vikipedio estis lanĉita en 2002 antaŭ multaj alilingvaj, ĝi dum monatoj estis en kvara vico, kaj nun plu restas inter la dudek plej gravaj projektoj (inter 250). La vico de Esperanto emas malantaŭeniri, ne ĉar ĝi stagnas (kontraŭe ĝi konstante progresas ne nur kvante sed ankaŭ kvalite), sed ĉar aliaj projektoj en lingvoj kun pli granda parolantaro pli rapide progresas.

Estas via opinio ke estas pli oportune elturniĝi per diversaj mondskale disvastigitaj lingvoj (rusa, araba, franca, hispana, ktp). Esperantoparolantoj spertas ion alian pri kio multaj povas atesti : eblecon vere kaj profunde interkompreniĝi kun aliaj homoj el plej diversaj kulturoj. Eĉ se hazarda renkontiĝo kun esperantoparolanto eksterlande estas nun rara evento (sed tamen foje okazas), interrenkontiĝo de diverskulturaj homoj pere de Esperanto ne estas malofta, kaj interkomunikiĝo inter ili estas multe pli kontentiga ol balbutado per malbone regitaj diversaj nacilingvoj.

Laste : la nuna Esperanta Vikipedio estas la rezulto de pli ol kvinjara laborado de dekoj da gekontribuantoj ene de la multlingva Vikipedio kun multaj interlingvaj ligiloj, disdividante komunajn rimedojn, kun enteno ofte tradukita de iu alia lingvo, foje tradukita al alia lingvo (Esperanto tiam rolas kiel fontlingvo), kaj foje siavice estis tradukita al tria lingvo, tiam rolante kiel pontlingvo. Konklude, la Esperanta Vikipedio estas neapartigebla ero de la Vikipedia projektaro kaj ĝin forigi estus grava perdo por ĝi.

Estas via opinio ke ni (=la gekontribuantoj de la Esperanta Vikipedio) perdas nian tempon plu kontribuante en ĉi tiu projekto : temas pri nia tempo kaj nia energio. Eĉ se vi sukcesus fermigi nian projekton, tio ne forigus nian konvinkintecon profunde bazitan sur faktoj kaj spertoj pri la valoro de Esperanto kaj nian firman volon plu konstrui kulturajn ilojn por plu plialtigi la kulturan valoron de Esperanto.

Arno Lagrange ✉ ^@ ₪ 10:10, 4. Maj 2008 (UTC)

Translation of Arno (Note: Arno is one of our native Esperantists.)

Your assertion that Esperanto isn't a real language is an absurdity. Esperanto is a language and it is real. Even if among espernato-speakers would find no native speakers (like in the first decades of the language) it however without a doubt answers the definition of real language.

Scott mentions Hebrew; I would add the Indonesian language, which also is a planned language (a planned language from the Malayan language) which became an official language of a large country. One could even say about important state and culture-languages that they were sometime normalized out of real dialects spoken in the country (like in French, Italian, German, Spanish) that in that sense, they all are planned languages.

Esperanto even has more speakers and cultural products (books, periodicals, sound recordings, webpages, etc.) than many of the 6700 languages spoken in the world. Principally in the multilanguage Wikipedia, Esperanto stands in a good position: the Esperanto Wikipedia was launched in 2002 before many other languages; during a few months it was in fourth place, and now remains among the 20 most important projects (among 250). The ranking of Esperanto is tending to slip, not because it is stagnating (quite the opposite, it is constantly progressing both in quantity and quality) but because other projects with a greater speaker base can more rapidly progress.

It is your opinion that it's convenient to be wrapped up in world-scale widely dispersed languages (Russian, Arabic, French, Spanish, etc.). Esperanto-speakers experience something else about which many will attest: a possibility to truly and profoundly meet with other Esperanto-speakers out of most diverse cultures. Even if a random encounter with an Esperanto-speaker is a rare event (but however it sometimes happens) encounters of people from diverse cultures due to Esperanto is not uncommon, and intercommunication among them is much more pleasing that stuttering poorly learned national languages.

Lastly, the current Esperanto Wikipedia is the result of a more than five-year work of dozens of contributors within the multilanguage Wikipedia with multiple interwiki links, dividing up community resources, with input often translated from some other language (Esperanto acting at that time as the source language) and sometimes translated to a third language, then acting as a bridge language. In conclusion, the Esperanto Wikipedia is inseperable part of the Wikipedia project, and to remove it would be a grave loss for it.

It's your opinion that we (the contributors of the Esperanto Wikipedia) further waste our time contributing in this project: it's about our time and our energy. Even if you successfuly close our project, that would not remove our conviction deeply based on facts and experience about the value of Esperanto and our steadfast will to further construct cultural tools to further raise the cultural value of Esperanto.

Tradukita de Yekrats 02:54, 5. Maj 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, Jóhann, I might add: I think you effort would be better spent if you were to enjoy yourself with your contributions to your favorite Wikipedias, and leave us to ours. I would also ask that you leave the Volapuk alone, as well as any other Wikipedias that have dedicated workers. -- Yekrats 02:54, 5. Maj 2008 (UTC)

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It sounds like you have a few problems to work out for yourself, Jóhann. I'm sorry you hate us, and it seems like you hate a lot of people, but there's not much I can do about that. You don't really present any rational arguments for disliking our language. To be honest, your arguments are bordering on the insane. Well, apparently I gave you way too much credit.

I do read French, and even attended school in Quebec for one summer with a French-speaking family. So I do have some familiarity with foreign languages as well. However, no matter how much I learned French form a book and instructor, when I tried to speak simple phrases, I sounded like a stuttering idiot. I became a stuttering idiot in Esperanto with only a few weeks of self-study. ;-)

So, take a deep breath, sir. Relax. Apparently you are way too serious about this.

I will end my otherwise friendly note to you with this warning. If you hate us, and are unwilling to learn our language or participate in this Wikipedia project... if you only want our Wikipedia closed, and only want to troll our site and spew hatred, then you are not welcome here. Please leave us alone. -- Yekrats 03:23, 7. Maj 2008 (UTC)